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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:06 pm 
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conscience wrote:
Mr Spock wrote:
Next time a millionaire Tory politician says we are all in this together, ask them what sacrifices they have made.

And remember, people who wont vote because they dont see a difference are a big part of the problem, because they let the ones who wont vote if there is too big a differenced dictate what governments do.


True, they're nearly all millionaires I think I remember reading.

But then, how much money has Tony Blair got? And the extras EG £2m a year as a JP Morgan advisor.

I don't agree non-voters are part of the problem. Even if we all spoiled our papers and forced a combined coalition government - surely the best possible outcome short of a revolution - every MP I'm aware of would all pursue the same corporate-banking agenda regardless while filling their pockets and screwing us in the process. There's not a single one of them I'd put your name to over them representing me, I'd be too embarassed and ashamed to pick any of them with my blessing so what's the point?

Sure there'll be a few token policies that back up either side of the argument depending on which party cut what, but the illusion of choice is just that imho; an illusion.



Id love to have a revolution but history says they make things worse, history says evolution works better and we forget these days the difference that the Labour movement has made to all our lives over the years and I know many Labour Politicians, Ive met Benn, Mikado, Skinner, Ann Coffey, Andrew Bennett, Harold Wilson, Tony LLoyd, Jack McConnell, (I was at Uni with him) Glyn Ford Not one of them fits your description, theyre all as frustrated as you and I, that Labour Governments cant make bigger changes they have to compromise to get ellected they have to get elected to make a difference no form of coalition Government would improve anything as for 'token policies' the minimum wage wasnt, the illusion is that there is no difference, perpetrated by the Tory media to protect themselves from a repeat of the 1945 election.

like it or not, we think what the media tell us to think or rather too many of us do and we get Governments that reflect what we dont want rather than what we do want because other than Tory Governments they would never get elected otherwise. You just have to see the number of people queueing up to agree with Clarkson and accusing him of talking sense to see that

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:08 pm 
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O-Dog wrote:
The pensions in the private sector are shit, so let's ensure the pensions in the public sector are shit, too. Nice.

Did you know that a lot of public sector pensions are NOT paid for directly through taxation, e.g. most local government schemes? Or that the Government spends more money on giving tax relief for private sector pension contributions than it spends on pension payments for the public sector (those pension payments funded directly by the taxpayer)? So, even if these reforms go ahead, they'll not save the government any significant money.

This is a political row, not a financial one, and like most political rows these days, it is fuelled by misinformation. Governments of both colours have ensured over the last 40 years or so that the employer has a lot less responsibility of care for its employees, hence the wholesale destruction of the private sector pension provision and the new proposals to make it easier to sack people. Next on the agenda is ensuring public sector workers are treated as shabbily as private sector workers.

My partner, who works long hours in a stressful public sector job, will find herself £100 a month worse off when these new rules come into force - the increase to her monthly pension contributions. She'll have to work seven years longer, yet the final pension she will receive will be greatly reduced (contrary to what the Government says). Even if her pension stayed as it is now, it is far from 'gilt edged'. Yeah, how dare she be miffed, Mr Clarkson. She should be thankful we're all in this together.



:cheer: At last some sense from someone

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:10 pm 
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...AND Tony Blair wasn't a massive tw*t, that was all a lie the tories came up with, the rascals!!

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:12 pm 
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I quite liked Tony.

Watch his early stuff Serb. He's a good speaker unlike the idiots we got now.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:15 pm 
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He was a prize be**end :lol:

They're all the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:17 pm 
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Click The Link...http://www.progressonline.org.uk/2007/04/25/10-years-of-labour-achievements/


Blair was a clever politician who did what was needed to get rid of the Tories and keep them out of power.

Read this link, without Blair NONE of these things would have happened

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Last edited by Mr Spock on Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:19 pm 
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So who do you vote for Spock? :think:

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:21 pm 
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and by the way having spent a lot of time with politicians of all parties I can tell you they are not all the same

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:22 pm 
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I love the fact it's sense because someone agree's with you.

And can't you you see the paradox of you saying a Tories reasoning doesn't work, when he'll say the same about yours.

And so the public sector pensions aren't going to be as good as they were meant to be. They are still infinately better than mine.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:31 pm 
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Its sense because its a set of simple facts not subjective opinion

You're not listening, just because you dont have something doesnt mean its right to take that same thing off someone else WHO HAS PAID FOR IT, Ive no doubt that those who burgled my house in the eighties used that kind of logic.

And a Tory can say my reasoning doesnt work all he or she wants, the evidence and history back up my reasoning, and Ive attached rather a lot of evidence to this thread all they have is ideology.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:36 pm 
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Mr Spock wrote:
Its sense because its a set of simple facts not subjective opinion

You're not listening, just because you dont have something doesnt mean its right to take that same thing off someone else WHO HAS PAID FOR IT, Ive no doubt that those who burgled my house in the eighties used that kind of logic.

And a Tory can say my reasoning doesnt work all he or she wants, the evidence and history back up my reasoning, and Ive attached rather a lot of evidence to this thread all they have is ideology.


Oh, I didn't realise they were getting no pensions whatsover.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:44 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
Oh, I didn't realise they were getting no pensions whatsover.


It is wrong that your employer won't provide a decent pension. But you will not right that wrong by making the lot of the public sector worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:45 pm 
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And also, you're not listening.

I'm sure there is a Tory boy somewhere who could post articles and counter act all your points and say history proves they're right etc. I'm not interested.

Most of the people in the UK vote without even looking at policies and manifesto's. It's terrible. In fact I think people shouldn't be able to vote until they've achieved 75% or over in an exam about all manifesto's. And a lot of people just vote for the same party as their Dad/Mum voted for because that's the viewpoint they've been brought up with.

So I might waste my vote by not voting, but most of the votes are just plucked out the air anyway.

It's all rubbish, they sit there on Question time throwing insults like children blaming eachother for all the problems.

You think you're right, they think they're right.

I think I'm right, and they're all the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:48 pm 
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O-Dog wrote:
Mr Carrot wrote:
Oh, I didn't realise they were getting no pensions whatsover.


It is wrong that your employer won't provide a decent pension. But you will not right that wrong by making the lot of the public sector worse.


My employer doesn't provide a pension at all.

As you can tell I have no interest in politics. As far as I'm concerned whatever government gets in needs to collect the same amount of money. They'll do it one way or another and in the process annoy some portion of the population.

If labour were in there would be some tory boy posting links and articles.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
O-Dog wrote:
Mr Carrot wrote:
Oh, I didn't realise they were getting no pensions whatsover.


It is wrong that your employer won't provide a decent pension. But you will not right that wrong by making the lot of the public sector worse.


My employer doesn't provide a pension at all.

As you can tell I have no interest in politics. As far as I'm concerned whatever government gets in needs to collect the same amount of money. They'll do it one way or another and in the process annoy some portion of the population.

If labour were in there would be some tory boy posting links and articles.

Spot on :thumbup:

It's like listening to fans of bitter football rivals.

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
My employer doesn't provide a pension at all.

As you can tell I have no interest in politics. As far as I'm concerned whatever government gets in needs to collect the same amount of money. They'll do it one way or another and in the process annoy some portion of the population.

If labour were in there would be some tory boy posting links and articles.


Yeah, I'm not making a party political point either. Pension provisions in this country are shit. Let's not make that worse by destroying public pensions. That's my point.


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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:18 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
And also, you're not listening.

I'm sure there is a Tory boy somewhere who could post articles and counter act all your points and say history proves they're right etc. I'm not interested.


NO, THEY CANT, not using objective facts and figures anyway, George Osborne cant even do that now, all he has is his strong belief that if you let him do this for long enough it will work (and long enough is now two parliaments when he said one before). He has subjective economic theories on his side, I have objective numbers. Under the continuing influence of the previous Labour administration, 2010 saw £20bn more than forecast wiped off the deficit as a result not of spending cuts but of "New Deal"-style growth stimulation, Reuters reports that the Office for Budget Responsibility's forecasts are expected to show a "borrowing overshoot of at least 86 billion pounds over four years. It is unremarkable that Osborne can point to the OECD and IMF supporting cuts – they are the global advocates of public austerity. And even they are now saying that the cuts wont work. He does not mention the three Nobel prize-winning economists (Pissaredes, Stiglitz, Krugman) and Martin Wolf of the Financial Times, not to mention David Blanchflower who I have refered to frequently all of whom condemn this austerity policy as a serious historical error.

Mr Carrot wrote:
Most of the people in the UK vote without even looking at policies and manifesto's. It's terrible. In fact I think people shouldn't be able to vote until they've achieved 75% or over in an exam about all manifesto's. And a lot of people just vote for the same party as their Dad/Mum voted for because that's the viewpoint they've been brought up with.

So I might waste my vote by not voting, but most of the votes are just plucked out the air anyway.


I actually agree with some of what you say here, most Political debate in this country is ill informed and most people really dont understand what they are voting for, very few vote the way mum and dad did though, they vote for whom the Sun says, or the Express, or the Star or the Mail and there is too much misinformation diseminated to us by a media owned by wealthy vested interests who are opposed to change. But only engaging with and countering the lies and mis-information and the divide and rule tactics will change this, if you dont vote they get their way.


Mr Carrot wrote:
It's all rubbish, they sit there on Question time throwing insults like children blaming eachother for all the problems.

You think you're right, they think they're right.

I think I'm right, and they're all the same.



As I said, I'm using real, objective facts and figures, they use strongly held theories and beliefs.

Borrowing and spending are bad things, we are spending and borrowing too much so we need to cut spending and make the ordinary people pay the cost instead of those who have all the money

against

Under the last Labour Government we went into the recesion due to the greed of the banks (and the Central banks pushing up interest rates too much and keeping them there too long) with record low public debt and defecit levels and got through it coming out with an increased defecit (but still lower than Thatchers) but a reducing defecit from the extra money we had to Spend to keep the economy afloat (which the Tories and Liberals both supported at the time), increasing GDP, falling unemployment and home reposessions and generally healthier economic figures, whilst after two years of the Tories Policies we have near zero growth, rising unemployment falling production, rising company failures, their cuts are costing more ( two BIG examples- it cost more to scrap Nimrod than it would have done to complete the project and the scaling back of the Aircraft carrier programme means it will cost more and we will get only one working carrier which will be less effective than it would have been - yet they still found the money for Trident)

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:22 pm 
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Serbinator wrote:
So who do you vote for Spock? :think:

Trotsky :coffee:

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:25 pm 
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oh and on that 86b overspend, the OBR (which the Tories set up) latest forecasts state that figure could rise to an enormous £132bn (£46bn + £86bn), taking Osborne's total borrowing over that planned by Alistair Darling. The Brown government was forecast to borrow £127bn in 2011-12 and £106bn in 2012-13. Osborne is expected to borrow £129bn ths year (up from £122bn) and £117bn next year (up from £101bn).

So the cutting of the public sector pensions is not designed to reduce the money that the tax payer is paying to the pensioners but to enable the Government to raid the even bigger surpluses in those pension pots to subsidise its policies

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 Post subject: Re: Clarkson gets Public Sector Workers and himself mixed up
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Resurrection Joe wrote:
Serbinator wrote:
So who do you vote for Spock? :think:

Trotsky :coffee:


He's dead so I cant, Ive voted for myself a few times though

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