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 Post subject: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:14 am 
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A man killed in a suspected terrorist attack in south-east London was a member of the armed forces, senior Whitehall sources have confirmed.

Two men spent the night under arrest in hospital as counter-terrorism police investigate the killing in Woolwich.

One man - his hands covered in blood- was filmed by a passer-by, saying he carried out the attack because British soldiers killed Muslims every day.

The PM is to chair a Cobra emergency response committee later.

David Cameron flew back from France yesterday to lead the government response. The meeting will be attended by politicians, the UK's most senior police officer and the new head of MI5.

Meanwhile, security has been increased at barracks across London.

The two suspects were shot and wounded by police after the attack - which took place in John Wilson Street, the A205, at 14:20 BST.

One is in a serious condition while the other is also being treated for injuries.

This man was photographed brandishing a knife and speaking to a woman at the scene
Eyewitnesses say the victim was hacked to death by two men shouting Allahu Akbar (God is Great).

The men made no attempt to flee and encouraged people to take pictures of them and their victim.

In footage obtained by ITV News, one of the men was filmed wielding a bloodied meat cleaver and making political statements.

"I apologise that women have had to witness this today, but in our land our women have to see the same," he said.

"You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they don't care about you."

The other was pictured holding a knife and speaking to a woman at the scene.

The Daily Telegraph has spoken to the woman.

According to the paper, Cub Scout leader Ingrid Loyau-Kennett asked him: "Would you like to give me what you have in your hands?"

"He was covered with blood," she said. "I thought I had better talk to him before he starts attacking somebody else."

She says the suspect told her the dead man was a British soldier, adding: "I killed him because he kills Muslims over there and I am fed up that people kill Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

A blue vehicle believed to be involved in the incident was covered with red tarpaulin and towed away from the scene - it is thought the victim may have been hit by the car before he was attacked.

The Muslim Council of Britain said the murder was "a truly barbaric act that has no basis in Islam and we condemn this unreservedly".

Meanwhile, two men have been arrested after separate attacks on mosques.

A 43-year-old was held in custody on Wednesday night suspected of attempted arson after reportedly walking into a mosque holding a knife in Braintree, Essex.

Another man was arrested in Gillingham on suspicion of racially aggravated criminal damage as around 250 supporters of the English Defence League gathered in Woolwich and clashed with police.

Former home secretary Lord Reid warned against "playing into the agenda" of the perpetrators.

"The dividing line is not between Islam and non-Islam," he told the BBC. "It is between the terrorists and everyone else."

At a press conference with French President Francois Hollande in Paris, Mr Cameron said Britain would "never buckle" in the face of terror attacks.

"People across Britain, people in every community, I believe, will utterly condemn this attack," said Mr Cameron, who was previously planning to stay in Paris on Wednesday night.

Met Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, MI5 director general Andrew Parker, Home Secretary Theresa May, Defence Secretary Philip Hammond and Mayor of London Boris Johnson are among those expected to attend Thursday morning's Cobra meeting.

Meanwhile, armed forces personnel based in London and elsewhere have been told to be more vigilant.

That is on top of the extra precautions now being taken at London's 10 or so main barracks.

BBC defence correspondent Caroline Wyatt said that, since British forces intervened in Iraq and Afghanistan, they and their families have been well aware they might be targets at home.

At least two plots by Islamic extremists to kill soldiers in the UK have been foiled in recent years.


The most important thing is that all communities come together and condemn the actions of these two lunatics for what they've done.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:35 am 
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JSP wrote:
The most important thing is that all communities come together and condemn the actions of these two lunatics for what they've done.


In the interests of which 2 men have been arrested for separate attacks on mosques, one in Essex and one in Kent. Not to mention the EDL march.

If these two were looking to drive a wedge between communities then they may well have achieved their goal.

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But James and Pak both said they were voting JSP


:doh:

You know what Paks like. He's probably voted JSP for woman of the year or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 9:56 am 
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Spawny wrote:

In the interests of which 2 men have been arrested for separate attacks on mosques, one in Essex and one in Kent. Not to mention the EDL march.

If these two were looking to drive a wedge between communities then they may well have achieved their goal.


The wedge has always been there in the UK despite how some people dress it up most communities keep themselves to themselves and get on with their lives something like this stokes the fire and brings out the idiots just like when a muslim lad gets killed by a white lad it all goes a bit mental for a few days then life goes back to normal for most people.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:07 am 
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has anyone seen the video of the man with bloody hands. Halfway through some woman walks past him, while he is holding a machete and a knife, pulling her shopping trolly! :lol:

This is one of the most shocking things I have known in my life. Absolutely brutal. How on earth did they know he was a soldier, anyone could be wearing that top. Sickening, I really can't compute it, much like the twin tower attacks, it seems unreal.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:15 am 
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JSP wrote:
The wedge has always been there in the UK despite how some people dress it up most communities keep themselves to themselves and get on with their lives something like this stokes the fire and brings out the idiots just like when a muslim lad gets killed by a white lad it all goes a bit mental for a few days then life goes back to normal for most people.


I hope things do settle down again pretty soon, remains to be seen I guess, there will always be some idiots who blame the entire Muslim community for something like this.

Mr Carrot wrote:
has anyone seen the video of the man with bloody hands. Halfway through some woman walks past him, while he is holding a machete and a knife, pulling her shopping trolly! :lol:

This is one of the most shocking things I have known in my life. Absolutely brutal. How on earth did they know he was a soldier, anyone could be wearing that top. Sickening, I really can't compute it, much like the twin tower attacks, it seems unreal.


I can only assume that they'd seen him coming out of the barracks, so assumed he was a soldier and targeted him.

It's a really tough one to understand, or try to make sense of.

I'm conflicted on the police response as well. On the one hand the attackers probably wanted the police to kill them, so from that point of view as well as intelligence gathering it's good that they didn't. On the other hand, now the NHS are paying to treat these 2 "people" :no:

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idontfeardeath wrote:
Spawny wrote:
But James and Pak both said they were voting JSP


:doh:

You know what Paks like. He's probably voted JSP for woman of the year or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:19 am 
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Whatever their concerns, two wrongs don't make a right.

While I don't condone any violence at all nevermind murder, I can understand the Muslim/Iraq/Afghanistan frustrations.

We and many other nations are over there killing many Muslims and we have been for years. The Iraq war has been going on for ten years and counting, Afghanistan for twelve years with the death toll (2009 figures IIRC) of three-quarters of a million people and counting including tens of thousands of civilians. Personally if that was my homeland I reckon I'd be pretty p1ssed off too, wouldn't anyone?

I think/hope most people are too smart to let the actions of a couple of extremists cause problems between them and other communities. This was the actions of two men not all Muslim/Iraq/Afghanistan people, and it'd be ridiculous to tar them all with the same brush imho. Let's hope people use their brains instead of listening to the media trying to round up a mob.

Rather than worrying about NHS costs, I'd be more inclined to ask questions about how come they got so badly injured they ended up in hospital? (Unless it happened during the attack on the soldier?) These two men were supposed to be getting arrested not attacked - or how are we any different from them?

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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:26 am 
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Looking at pictures of the two men I'm going to say that they probably aren't from Iraq/Afghanistan to me they look like muslims who've been radicalised the fact that following the attack they almost appeared calm and offered no threat to the public (one women even went and spoke to them) shows that they had a clear message that they wanted to send out.

I'd rather see these two people live in pain in prison for the rest of their lives than die and become martyrs for extremists.

The concern for me was before any information came out this was instantly portrayed as a terrorist style attack not just a pair of lunatics who've carried out what appears to be an unprovoked murder.

As for the men ending up in hospital I believe they were shot by armed police because they refused to put down their weapons to allow them to be arrested.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:30 am 
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Spawny,

apparantly he had just got of the train and was walking to the barracks, I have no idea how they knew, unless they knew him.

Con

Not that I agree with the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan is something else. However we are not at war with Muslims they just happen to be muslim countries. I don't understand why every muslim attack is called a terrorist attack. That was not a terrorist attack. It was two mental muslim people brutally killing someone. I think some of the terms the press use and the government don't help. People hear terrorist attack and get all batty


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 10:30 am 
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The two are confirmed British, with at least one having Nigerian ancestry. So I'm not sure this is about what's happening specifically in Iraq or Afghanistan, nor is it about "their country".

As for why they're in hospital, from witness accounts when the police arrived at least one of the suspects approached the police with a weapon in his hand. In that situation, after warning them, I think the police are fully justified in opening fire.

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idontfeardeath wrote:
Spawny wrote:
But James and Pak both said they were voting JSP


:doh:

You know what Paks like. He's probably voted JSP for woman of the year or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:07 am 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
Not that I agree with the invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan is something else. However we are not at war with Muslims they just happen to be muslim countries. I don't understand why every muslim attack is called a terrorist attack. That was not a terrorist attack. It was two mental muslim people brutally killing someone. I think some of the terms the press use and the government don't help. People hear terrorist attack and get all batty


Agreed, everything is a bloomin' "terror attack!!!" before the facts are established, whether it actually is or not, and the media make it a thousand times worse going over it again and again with wild, unsubstantiated claims. :no:

If I were a cynic (heh) I'd suspect they must want an opportunity to channel more cash into tooling-up the police anti-terrorism efforts or to justify enabling new legislation that reduces freedoms.

There were 493,242 deaths registered in England and Wales in 2010 alone, this is no end of the world moment. It's just an unfortunate, avoidable death. The two guys will get punished as they should be (hopefully fairly) - and hopefully this won't get blown out of all proportion. Again.

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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:10 am 
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Spawny wrote:
As for why they're in hospital, from witness accounts when the police arrived at least one of the suspects approached the police with a weapon in his hand. In that situation, after warning them, I think the police are fully justified in opening fire.


I disagree. The police have tasers, CS gas/pepper spray, dogs, batons, etc. and lots and lots of manpower so it doesn't sound like they were forced into shooting anyone to me. Shooting someone is about as 'last resort' as it gets imo!

But then I've not read the whole story yet. :dunno:

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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:16 am 
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conscience wrote:
Spawny wrote:
As for why they're in hospital, from witness accounts when the police arrived at least one of the suspects approached the police with a weapon in his hand. In that situation, after warning them, I think the police are fully justified in opening fire.


I disagree. The police have tasers, CS gas/pepper spray, dogs, batons, etc. and lots and lots of manpower so it doesn't sound like they were forced into shooting anyone to me. Shooting someone is about as 'last resort' as it gets imo!

But then I've not read the whole story yet. :dunno:


from what I caught on the news etc, the normal police waited for the armed response units, when they turned up one man with a gun rushed at the police officer with a gun and knife, it was so quick she didn't even have time to issue a warning.

I think it would be a bit unfair to expect the police to turn up at a scene where people have guns only armed with tasers/cs gas etc


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2013 11:18 am 
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conscience wrote:
I disagree. The police have tasers, CS gas/pepper spray, dogs, batons, etc. and lots and lots of manpower so it doesn't sound like they were forced into shooting anyone to me. Shooting someone is about as 'last resort' as it gets imo!

But then I've not read the whole story yet. :dunno:


They didn't know what sort of weapons the two guys had all the weapons you've listed require close proximity to be used effectively and you couldn't send a dog to attack someone with a knife. For me the safety of the police comes first without knowing if they had a gun you can't expect to send another human being in to that situation to try and deploy a taser.

They didn't shoot to kill they shot to disable which to me sounds like the right thing to do when you've got two nutters carrying weapons who've just brutally killed someone they don't know on his way home.


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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:13 am 
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There's a video on the Mirror website of the actual terrorists being shot by police. The one who is seen in other videos giving a speech to someone filming on a mobile phone actually comes within a matter of feet of the police who are taking cover behind a car door, with a cleaver in his hand. They really had no option other than to shoot them down.

conscience wrote:
Rather than worrying about NHS costs, I'd be more inclined to ask questions about how come they got so badly injured they ended up in hospital? (Unless it happened during the attack on the soldier?) These two men were supposed to be getting arrested not attacked - or how are we any different from them?


You should read the full story then before saying stuff like the above, if this guy looking exactly how he is in this picture, including weapons:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BK5yNmtCQAALCIX.png ..... runs at you, and you have a gun, I don't care who you are, you're going to shoot him.

On another note, the lad that was killed lived 5 mins walk away from me, and was in the year below me at my primary school. I don't recognise him on the picture but our paths would've undoubtedly crossed in the past.

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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
from what I caught on the news etc, the normal police waited for the armed response units, when they turned up one man with a gun rushed at the police officer with a gun and knife, it was so quick she didn't even have time to issue a warning.

I think it would be a bit unfair to expect the police to turn up at a scene where people have guns only armed with tasers/cs gas etc


Didn't realise they had guns tbh, certainly didn't see any pictures of them with any. Not that tasers are safer as they can kill too and have done 1000s of times and as recently as last month there was a bloke died in a fireball when tasered by police.

I just think it's a shame it went down that way.

People were stood right next to these 'terrorists' chatting and taking pictures so I dunno why the highly trained, highly equipped/armed security services couldn't just arrest them despite being provoked by the running.



JSP wrote:
They didn't know what sort of weapons the two guys had all the weapons you've listed require close proximity to be used effectively and you couldn't send a dog to attack someone with a knife.

They didn't shoot to kill they shot to disable which to me sounds like the right thing to do when you've got two nutters carrying weapons who've just brutally killed someone they don't know on his way home.


Why not a dog? While they're trying to fight off getting bitten, arrest them. Hell I'd be begging to get in the police car if an Alsation dog was biting me!

The taser could have been deployed from the same place as the shooting as the wires are pretty long, so if you miss or it doesn't work shooting to injure is one option... but tasering would disable them 100% better than a bullet in the leg where they could still fire a gun as/after they fell over imo.

I've seen the video, these men didn't act threatening once the soldier was dead, as shown in the very beginning of this video (rest of it is predictable news overreaction), when one of the men actually calmly apologised to someone because "women had witnessed it" and explained that "in our lands women have to see the same"?




Reedo wrote:
There's a video on the Mirror website of the actual terrorists being shot by police. The one who is seen in other videos giving a speech to someone filming on a mobile phone actually comes within a matter of feet of the police who are taking cover behind a car door, with a cleaver in his hand. They really had no option other than to shoot them down.

You should read the full story then before saying stuff like the above, if this guy looking exactly how he is in this picture, including weapons:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BK5yNmtCQAALCIX.png ..... runs at you, and you have a gun, I don't care who you are, you're going to shoot him.

On another note, the lad that was killed lived 5 mins walk away from me, and was in the year below me at my primary school. I don't recognise him on the picture but our paths would've undoubtedly crossed in the past.


I did say I'd not read the whole story yet.

I saw the video on the Mirror site - the police fired 8 shots. I understand their panic as they did rush toward/past them, but the eyewitness said one was "holding a gun like he might raise it" - not sure if I saw the second man shot raise something in this video right before he was shot? Looked like the first bloke they shot had already dropped his knife/cleaver. IMHO it looked decidedly on purpose those two men provoking the police into action so you can't criticise the police too harshly for that. It was clearly all planned, they even calmly waited for armed police to arrive before they did the running thing. Dunno where they fired the 8 shots but neither man was moving not even a twitch as far as I could see.

I still think shooting them was avoidable, but the police were clearly thinking on their feet/panicking and they had no idea any threat was probably over... and these blokes had waited there to bring an end to it... I suspect they actually wanted to get shot 'cause it's bigger headlines that way. They weren't crazed or out of control it was calculated and planned. Probably just to get people's attention that our soldiers have now killed over a million Muslims and it's still going on - an important point we can't ignore because it's our government and army and soldiers that are killing them.

What goes around, as they say.

Sorry for your loss if you and him were friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2013 2:16 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Soldier killed by extremists on the streets of Woolwich
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2013 3:05 pm 
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It's obvious to me the two fellas were attempting to get killed by the armed police. That way they were martyred for their cause by members of the establishment they so despise. The police done the right thing in incapacitating but not killing both of them.

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