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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:00 pm 
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borocooper wrote:
idontfeardeath wrote:
Monty wrote:
idontfeardeath wrote:
Monty wrote:
If Hart played for anyone other than City, nothing would have been said.


:lol: You're having a laugh right?


Nope. It's a forum full of Utd fans. I wouldn't expect anything else.


You're right it is.

Firstly - Most of us like Hart
Secondly - It's a good natured forum look at the criticism Rooney has taken.
Thirdly - Hart was massively over rated this tournament I don't blame him for the penalty shoot out however he didn't inspire confidence kicked many balls out of play and dropped many crosses.


I think it was his kicking which surprised/disappointed me the most..I can't think of many times he actually found a team mate.


His kicking isn't the best.

But when you look at the passing completion last night for the rest of the team...

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:05 pm 
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It can be debated who is to blame all day...the simple fact is England aren't good, and had injuries to players who could have made a difference.

I thought we did as well as expected, but the performance was woeful last night...allowing 31 shots to a distinctly average Italian side is just not good enough for a team playing with so many men behind the ball.

It's time to let go though now. Gerrard has had a good tournament, but won't be there in 2014, probably the same as Terry. Bring in the youth fully, rebuild, use the world cup as a learning experience and look towards 2016.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Agreed. I think England have a fair amount of decent youngsters as well, hopefully it'll give them plenty of time to try and get some kind of understanding going and get them playing as a team, unlike the previous generation who were just a bunch of individuals.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:08 pm 
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Monty wrote:
Bring in the youth fully, rebuild, use the world cup as a learning experience and look towards 2016.


That's what this tournament was going to be about 2 yrs ago. Hopefully with Hodgson in charge we can build a solid team. However we're going to be boring to watch I think we over emphasized how poor we were and played like we were an underdog. If we'd gone out to play yesterday I think we could have carved open chance after chance.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:12 pm 
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idontfeardeath wrote:
Monty wrote:
Bring in the youth fully, rebuild, use the world cup as a learning experience and look towards 2016.


That's what this tournament was going to be about 2 yrs ago. Hopefully with Hodgson in charge we can build a solid team. However we're going to be boring to watch I think we over emphasized how poor we were and played like we were an underdog. If we'd gone out to play yesterday I think we could have carved open chance after chance.


Oh I agree.

It still baffles me why the FA gave Hodgson a long term deal. We could have quite easily lost all 3 group games...then what?

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:16 pm 
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I thought the Hart criticism on here was all a bit tongue in cheek like you say you can't really blame a keeper in a penalty shootout you hope they save 1 and I don't think you can blame anyone really in a penalty shootout it's a lottery and has nothing to do with your ability as a footballer. A penalty is just a way of ending a football match when teams can't be seperated and no one has come up with a better alternative.

Considering our cr*p record in penalties we should probably stop playing for them as well :laugh:

Totally agree about the moving on we'd started to do this post WC 2010 with players like Hart, Lescott, Wilshere, Parker & Young coming into the side on a regular basis. Add to that youngsters like Smalling, Jones & Adam Johnson getting call ups considering we lost our manager 3 months before the tournament and lost a lot of players to injury a 1/4 exit isn't the end of the world.

Effectively we're no better than Greece or Czech Republic and we've shown that this tournament we can't go toe to toe with the better sides so we try and stack the deck in our favour by destroying any natural flow to the game.

We hoped that Rooney could be a game changed but in his two games he was poor but those who watched him this season will notice that isn't the bundle of energy he used to be and his all round game has been pretty average this season. What he is though is a pretty ruthless penalty box poacher and he showed in the 2 games that when the ball does come in the box he gets into positions to be on the end of it.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Monty wrote:
Oh I agree.

It still baffles me why the FA gave Hodgson a long term deal. We could have quite easily lost all 3 group games...then what?


Well what choice did they have the FA made a monumental f*ck up when they forced Capello into resigning by splitting his dressing room and taking the arm band off Terry.

They had to employ a manager who can think long term and Hodgson can do that so give him a contract that allows him to do it and if he loses the 3 group games well so be it. This tournament was a right off as soon as Capello quit all the plans went out the window then add to that injuries to players plus the Rio/Terry thing makes you wonder why we even bothered going. The positive was that with expectation removed the mood around the team and the media became much more positive there'll be no scapegoating of players or blaming a ref just acceptance that we've fallen behind.

If he picks this squad again for the world cup qualifiers then I'll be p*ssed off he has to phase out the last remaining part of the previous generation who have proven without any doubt that they couldn't cut it at international level.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:29 pm 
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Monty wrote:
England were shocking all tournament...it's hardly a shock that we went out like that without a whimper.

As for someone blaming "Hart for not getting close to any penalties" you want your head looking at. The penalty taker is always favourite in a shoot out, and we shouldn't have even been there anyway, cos Hart and the posts kept us in the game.

Blame the two Ashley's for the penalty defeat, never a goalie. Blame the awful Rooney who looked so far off the pace, the midfield who couldn't keep possession. If City had played like that, I would have been embarrassed.

If Hart played for anyone other than City, nothing would have been said.


I've been praising Hart all tourny, I think he's brilliant.

But I don't think he did enough, I think the keeper could issue some doubt into players minds. I'm not sure he got near one.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:34 pm 
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One massive positive I saw from the tournament was the players actually had smiles on their faces (well, everyone except for the eternally miserable c**t that is Steven Gerrard), think it makes such a difference to the attitude of the media and fans. If they all look miserable the whole time like they're not enjoying playing for their country then I think fans and media are much more inclined to get on their backs.

Another reason the old guys need to go, they're used to the England camp being divided by club loyalties, and a sh*t place to be with a crap atmosphere created by people like Terry who seems poisenous. Get them out, get in the youngsters that want and enjoy playing for England and it'll be reflected in the football they play I think.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:20 pm 
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The good thing with Hodgson is that any time those senior players pipe up in training trying to give it the big I am he can shout them down with the "well what the f*ck have you achieved in International football?"

They've all had fantastic club careers but when it comes to England they've not delivered we've tried different managers but I think the fans now are starting to realise it's got nothing to do with the managers these players just aren't good enough.

I agree the young lads seem happy and enjoying themselves the problem is if they do well our press will build them up so they can knock them down Wilshere has already been in trouble with the law & Cleverley is apparently banging some bird of TOWIE so it's only a matter of time before fans turn on them because they have a bad game.

Football should be about having fun and expressing yourlself hopefully with this next generation Hodgson will want to see them getting on the ball and taking care of it rather than treating the thing like a bomb that's about to blow.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:01 pm 
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JSP wrote:
I thought the Hart criticism on here was all a bit tongue in cheek like you say you can't really blame a keeper in a penalty shootout you hope they save 1 and I don't think you can blame anyone really in a penalty shootout it's a lottery and has nothing to do with your ability as a footballer.


This is why England loses so many and a team like Germany so few. Penalties are not lotteries, but if you continue to think so it's easier to think "we lsot due to luck' vs "we lsot because we lacked bottle when it mattered". Matter of fact if you think about getting a penalty in a regular game ppl always moan as they know more times than not it is converted - it's obvious there is less pressure for many of these players at their club in a league game vs a knockout so they usually score.

There is an art to taking a penalty. There are 4 corners it is hard for any keepr to reach and if you actually practice to hit it there.. plus work on your mentality, you'll get success more often than not.

You could see in all 3 takers who missed they were going to. Young didn't for once look up but his eyes were wide open, Cole's tongue was halfway out his mouth and he stopped his run up completely, and Montolivio looked like a deer in headlights.

Penalties are as much a lottery as a shot from 12 yards out during a game - the keeper will save it..or he won't. Matte of fact the shooter has more time to prep and decide his shot in this scenario. The onus on the shooter is to make it as hard as possible by shooting for the best angle. But if you don't have the mental toughness then that extra prep time becomes extra anxiety as it usually does for England.

England needs to have some serious psychiatric work to get over the mental block (best/easiest thing would be to start with the young ones I guess as this generations lost too many) - you could see at the start Buffon was laughing while the coins flipped, while Gerrard looked anxious.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:10 pm 
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ManMoreFyahYoo wrote:
England needs to have some serious psychiatric work to get over the mental block (best/easiest thing would be to start with the young ones I guess as this generations lost too many) - you could see at the start Buffon was laughing while the coins flipped, while Gerrard looked anxious.

But then two seconds later Hart was smiling and Balotelli looked a bit anxious, or maybe he was just focused.

Thought Balotelli was pretty awful yesterday. His movement was really good but finishing/decision making was poor and towards the end he just started shooting from wherever on the pitch he was. He's a good young player with lots of potential but I don't think he's special.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:41 pm 
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ManMoreFyahYoo wrote:
This is why England loses so many and a team like Germany so few. Penalties are not lotteries, but if you continue to think so it's easier to think "we lsot due to luck' vs "we lsot because we lacked bottle when it mattered". Matter of fact if you think about getting a penalty in a regular game ppl always moan as they know more times than not it is converted - it's obvious there is less pressure for many of these players at their club in a league game vs a knockout so they usually score.

There is an art to taking a penalty. There are 4 corners it is hard for any keepr to reach and if you actually practice to hit it there.. plus work on your mentality, you'll get success more often than not.

You could see in all 3 takers who missed they were going to. Young didn't for once look up but his eyes were wide open, Cole's tongue was halfway out his mouth and he stopped his run up completely, and Montolivio looked like a deer in headlights.

Penalties are as much a lottery as a shot from 12 yards out during a game - the keeper will save it..or he won't. Matte of fact the shooter has more time to prep and decide his shot in this scenario. The onus on the shooter is to make it as hard as possible by shooting for the best angle. But if you don't have the mental toughness then that extra prep time becomes extra anxiety as it usually does for England.

England needs to have some serious psychiatric work to get over the mental block (best/easiest thing would be to start with the young ones I guess as this generations lost too many) - you could see at the start Buffon was laughing while the coins flipped, while Gerrard looked anxious.


An English team beat a German team in the European Cup Final both English players who stepped up Lampard and Cole scored and a German Schweinsteiger missed. I say it's a lottery because football is not 1 vs 1 situations it's 11 vs 11 and there is a huge amount of luck involved with pens. If Buffon dives the other way then Cole's pen is as good as diamanti's it's vica versa if Hart goes the other way he saves the penalty.

Now you can improve your chances by relentlessly practising your penalties to the point where your so confident that you can block out any thought but if the keeper guesses right and it's not perfect in the corner you're in trouble. Practise makes perfect but you can do something 100 times in training perfect but the 1 times it matters you f*ck it up a non football example is Usain Bolt jumping the start in the 100m final at the world championships. He'll never do that again and Ashley Young has took many pens for Villa don't remember him missing and Ashley Cole has tucked a pen away in an FA Cup final & European Cup Final.

I think there is a huge element of luck involved in penalties you'll never convince me otherwise and English players maybe lack the confidence to recreate in a stadium of 50,000 what they do in training every week but Italy last night had a similar record on pens. The penalties taken by Rooney & Gerrard were pens by players who clearly practise them all the time at club level both struck cleanly into the corners by confident players. Young got just a bit to much on his pen and Cole didn't seem to strike it well they're penalties who aren't used to pressure situations.

I'm not making excuses and no one here is suggesting we were unlucky everyone is said we got totally out played for pretty much the entire match and didn't even deserve to get to pens.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:46 pm 
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Serbinator wrote:
Monty wrote:
England were shocking all tournament...it's hardly a shock that we went out like that without a whimper.

Depends on where your expectations were beforehand. If you'd deluded yourself into thinking the current England side could go and suddenly play some liquid football after years of playing awful football, then yes, they were shocking.

If, however, you were realistic and realised the teams shortcomings, then I think they actually did OK.


Agreed. :thumbup: With what we had I thought we did OK, and there's no shame in losing to Italy... though there is work to be done.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Of course penalties are lucky, but I do think you can help yourself.

The keeper can definately psyche out the kicker.

I also think that the only way they will overcome this is by eventually winning a couple on the trot. But they could practise more.
Young had a bad game and probably should not have taken one. Cole's was pathetic.
The keeper needs to do more research on the players taking the kick and watch the ball. There is no way Pirlo should have scored that pen.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:02 pm 
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I highly doubt Pirlo does that every time, otherwise he would have been found out long ago. I'm guessing it was a spur of the moment thing.

Something with pens that always surprises me is how few players actually go for the top corners (or at least the corners off the ground). OK, there's more risk of putting your foot under the ball and spooning it, but as long as you get it on target you're almost guaranteed to score. Keepers only ever dive to the bottom corner. Nani and Anderson are brilliant at this (from memory).

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Serbinator wrote:
ManMoreFyahYoo wrote:
England needs to have some serious psychiatric work to get over the mental block (best/easiest thing would be to start with the young ones I guess as this generations lost too many) - you could see at the start Buffon was laughing while the coins flipped, while Gerrard looked anxious.

But then two seconds later Hart was smiling and Balotelli looked a bit anxious, or maybe he was just focused.

Thought Balotelli was pretty awful yesterday. His movement was really good but finishing/decision making was poor and towards the end he just started shooting from wherever on the pitch he was. He's a good young player with lots of potential but I don't think he's special.


Hart smiled TOO much - he should've watched more tapes.

As to Ashley Cole - it's reported he always goes to the goalie's left so I assume Buffon watched less porn than he said he would!

Balotell was awful in his finishing yep, but everything else was easy - he sprung that "offside trap" half a dozen times.

As to Young scoring penalties all the time for Villa - I know he earns them, but did he take all of them? And as I said - that is a club situation - it's easier to take a penalty that if you miss doesn't mean all that much in November or January vs one that knocks you out a big cup... mentality is half the battle in a shootout, skill about 40% and luck is about 10%. Pirlo has tried that chip already and had it saved vs Jao Pinto I think. But Hart was so trying t put him off he dived well before it was struck if you watch :

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Once he started leaning to his right Pirlo had the option to chip it. He will have learned a whole lot from this you hope. There was a reason Claudio Taffarel was such a great keeper in the 90s for Brazil - he knew how to save penalties and that it wasn't simply luck. It does become a game of odds, but when you guess a side before the striker even kicks then it does become luck. if you study all the factors properly like a striker's history of penalties, and body signals it becomes more science than guesswork.

In summary I'm not trying to prolong an argument, and there is some luck, but far less than I think the English hierarchy like to think, and this will keep on being the result on the international stage unless something proactive is done about it, moreso from the angle of the penalty takers rather than the keeper (you hope as Hart/whoever gets older they gain the necessary experience).

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Mr Carrot wrote:
Of course penalties are lucky, but I do think you can help yourself.

The keeper can definately psyche out the kicker.

I also think that the only way they will overcome this is by eventually winning a couple on the trot. But they could practise more.
Young had a bad game and probably should not have taken one. Cole's was pathetic.
The keeper needs to do more research on the players taking the kick and watch the ball. There is no way Pirlo should have scored that pen.


You can get in a players head yet and Joe Hart did his usual thing he guessed right on the first 2 penalties he had no chance on the Balotelli one and Montilivo his wide then Pirlo came in and just made him look human. As a keeper you can't predict that they'll do that Pirlo is a prolific penalty taker for his club sides and I bet if you look at his record he's never done that and rarely goes down the middle.

To save a penalty you have to go early to give yourself a chance and if Pirlo clocked what Hart was doing he knew that he could take that kind of pen.

Ashley Cole has scored in penalty shootouts before and Ashley Young used to take the pens at Villa and had a decent record. If he hadn't stepped up you're looking at Andy Carroll, Scott Parker & Theo Walcott for me Young was the logical choice as an experienced pen taker.


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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:50 pm 
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I don't think penalties are about luck..not for the strikers. You can make penalties unsaveable..hitting the bar isn't down to luck, it's down to bad technique at the time.

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 Post subject: Re: England v Italy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:59 pm 
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borocooper wrote:
I don't think penalties are about luck..not for the strikers. You can make penalties unsaveable..hitting the bar isn't down to luck, it's down to bad technique at the time.


True missing the target isn't down to luck that's bad technique but there's a huge element of luck in getting away with a cr*p penalty because the keeper has dived the wrong way.

That Diamanti penalty was poor but keeper goes the wrong way and he's a hero Cole takes the same penalty but Buffon goes the right way and Cole is the Villain.

That is where the luck of the penalty shootout comes from imo there is no excuse for missing the target though.

Also, when did penalty spots start collapsing during shootouts? This is something I never really remember there being an issue with until the mid 2000's. Now days after 2 or 3 pens players are having to replace divets where the standing foot has taken out the penalty spot.


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